An episodic record of the reflections of the 2009-2010 University of Notre Dame Engineering Honors Humanities Seminar
Monday, October 5, 2009
Marco Polo Postings
It seems that it is difficult for teams to make their own posts tot he website, so here is a prompt, under which you can enter your posts on il milione.
Despite the popular poolside game, “Marco Polo”, that has captured children’s attention for many years and the fame surrounding the explorer’s journeys, the esteem surrounding the traveler Marco Polo is quite unsupported. Based on the popular poolside game that children play, people seem to accept it as fact that Marco Polo actually traveled to China when in reality there is much evidence against it. Glamorized as the first European traveler to reach China, Marco Polo may have just been a traveler to the Far East, but never really traveled far enough to reach the Chinese borders and experience the Chinese cultures. While he deserves the label as a great early explorer, he doesn’t deserve the fame of being the first European man to reach China. Although Marco Polo claims to have made his way from Italy to China, we believe that he never got that far. Our first justification of this is that he fails to mention significant aspects of Chinese culture and geography such as the great wall of china, women’s foot binding, calligraphy, and the prevalence of tea. If he had indeed lived in China for over a decade, it is reasonable to assume he would have experienced or at least heard of these entities, especially considering the detail with which he describes most other locations. Secondly, it is rather strange that Polo never records direct human interaction but merely describes a multitude of scenes. It is known that Polo came into contact with Arabic traders who had certainly been to China. Therefore, Polo could have easily received information regarding Kublai Kahn and the Far East without actually traveling there. Another piece of evidence regarding the idea that Polo took his information from Arabic traders is the fact that he only describes Chinese concepts in Arabic terms. It seems very strange that someone who lived in China for ten years never learned the local language. Whether or not Marco Polo traveled to China, it is insignificant. The more important matter is the cultural impact that Marco Polo had on the Western world, and how they viewed the east. Prior to Marco Polo’s account, Europeans had entirely false beliefs about China in the respect that they were physically deformed and mystical people. Although Polo’s account wasn’t a first-hand account, the message and description that he gave about China was a step in the right direction. The account didn’t need to be mostly true at all; it just needed to inspire fascination about the east and dispel popular misconceptions. Marco Polo’s account also inspired future explorers such as Christopher Columbus to travel the world and experience what Marco Polo referred to. Quite frankly, no one ever took the accounts of Marco Polo to be an encyclopedia of the East; they simply just used them as a springboard to explore the rest if the world. Ever since Marco Polo’s account was written, people have been suspect of whether the account is accurate at all. As long as the children have a game to play on the beach when Jimmy Clausen was working for two grueling weeks, then it doesn’t really matter whether Marco Polo traveled to China or not.
Mike Marszowski, Chris Mork, Sarah Forde, Serena Mathews
Did Marco Polo go to China? While Marco Polo’s accomplishments are definitely embellished in his narrative, he probably had to travel to China to learn the factual information he includes in his narrative. For example, his knowledge of a certain type of wild rhubarb and poisonous grass indigenous to Succuir could not have been fabricated, as it was confirmed by later travelers (Aurel Stein). His detailed knowledge of the history of the rise of the Mongol tribes to power in China likewise could not have been gained unless he traveled in the region. He also describes in detail the culture and customs of the native people such that it is likely that he lived among them for some time, as opposed to reading about it in a book. Chinese records of the Ming dynasty do not have any indication that Marco Polo ever traveled to China and presented himself before the court of Kublai Khan. However, there are records in India of not only the fact that Marco Polo landed there, but also where he landed. Therefore, we theorize that because we know Marco Polo travelled to the East, and because he has such detailed knowledge of China, it can be safely assumed that Marco Polo did travel through China, although he did not present himself in the court of Kublai Khan. Judging by the original name of his narrative and his reputation as “Il Milione,” Marco Polo likely embellished his narrative to emphasize his own importance and make for a better story, but it was likely that his contemporaries knew to read it with a degree of skepticism.
Mike Marzowski, Chris Mork, Sarah Forde, Serena Mathews
Does it Matter? The embellishments by Marco Polo and his myriad editors do not necessarily undermine the factual credibility of his work. Although many grand details describing the court of Kublai Khan and the Great Khan’s favoritism of Marco Polo were likely added either by Polo himself or by subsequent authors, he still conveyed a great deal of factual information about China and the East as a whole. Although it is possible that Polo gained some of his information from other sources, he is still the primary force behind disseminating that knowledge throughout Europe. Regardless of whether or not he travelled to China, Polo is still responsible for reshaping the East in the collective European consciousness from a mythical, almost superhuman entity, to a concrete image with a real culture and real people.
The most important question is not whether Marco Polo made it to China, but if it even matters. Because the historical Western mindset on China is largely based on the writings of Marco Polo, it is important to know whether the mindset is based on an accurate account or not. If Marco Polo’s account is false, thousands of misconceptions about the East can then be attributed to his false account. Frances Wood, in her 1995 book Did Marco Polo Go To China?, notes while arguing that Marco Polo did not go to China that “these images [of the East] also distorted the reality of the Far East and has left behind a legacy of fictions and stereotypes instead.” Now that it is understood why it is important whether or not Marco Polo actually went to China, we can now evaluate if he did or not.
We firmly believe Marco Polo did not in fact go to China for many reasons. First he did not mention many important aspects of the Chinese culture. Included in these aspects are the tradition of foot-binding, the Great Wall, tea drinking practices, and the Chinese writing system. Some historians, such as John Larner, attempt to downplay the significances of these omissions. For example, Larner notes that foot-binding was limited only to the upper-class. However, Marco Polo seemed to spend quite a large amount of time interacting with the Great Kahn and holding high positions, he must have spent a bit of time with the upper-class or at least seen evidence of this ritual. Next, Larner defends the omission of the Great Wall by noting that the Wall would have been in much greater ruins than it is now (due to the repair in the 16th century) and it would not have been a major fixation for Marco Polo to focus on. Again, even if the Great Wall was a fraction of the size it is today, it would still be quite noticeable, or at least the story of its greatness would have been mentionable. Larner’s defense of Polo’s ignorance of the tea-drinking practices is that these practices were popular in Southern China, and Polo stayed mostly in the Northern region. While this is a very solid point, it is very possible that news of the practice would have reached him in Northern China, especially if he was as focused on documenting the culture as he appears. Lastly, Larner’s defense for the writing system is that Polo did mention paper money. Truly, this one of the weakest rebuttals we’ve ever seen. Failure to mention the Chinese calligraphy is failing to mention a very important part of why the Culture was so advanced, and certainly aided misconceptions of the East.
Other evidence comes in the stereotypes that Polo enforces with his description of the Chinese people. Similarly to how the author of the Bali article catered his commentary to the Western ideas of what was expected of the Balinese culture, Polo’s writing style makes it appear that he did the same thing. His choppy, impersonal accounts of each city appear very tailored to what the Europeans expect. For example, Polo’s account of page 76 (Chapter 51) of the customary practice of burying the Prince in which anyone who the Prince’s escorts found on the road on the way to the burial site would be sacrificed in order to be servants in the afterlife, is a small account similar to the Balinese story that would instantly ignite curiosity in the Western readers. Polo notes that upwards of 20,000 people would be slain on the journey to the burial spot. This exemplifies the efforts of Polo to dramatize the people of the East and their practices and spurs on the current stereotypes. In other instances, such as in Chapter 39, Polo mentions a route across the desert that describes other people’s account rather than his own. His account is so impersonal that it is not unreasonable to doubt his crossing of the desert at all.
On a final note, no major Chinese documents have mentioned Polo’s existence or encounter with the Great Kahn or even the region. The Mongol culture at the time documented practically every interaction with the Great Kahn, so it is odd that, as close as Polo seems to say he was to the Kahn, there is no mention of Polo.
In the end, it is quite evident that Marco Polo did not actually reach China. His account is too impersonal, choppy, and romanticized to seem believable. If he did not in fact reach China, centuries of beliefs of the “other” culture are based on a false or copied account. If his account was copied from another source, he still added his own flair to spice up the culture and make the book more entertaining for its Western readers.
Sources:
Dr. Lionel Jenson
Rspas.anu.edu/au/eah/Marcopolo.html
Farish A Noor in Impact International Vol.27 No.2 February 1997, Ramadan/Shaw’wal 1417. Article based on "Did Marco Polo Go To China?" by Frances Wood, Secker and Warburg, London 1995
From the 7/24/00 issue of USN&WR The fabulous fabulist Did Marco Polo really make it to China?
Michael Collins, Ryan Lynch, Caroline McIlroy, Andrew Ritter, and Shannon Warchol Our post was orignally posted under the previous topic in order to meet the deadline of October 4, but here it is again (the exact same as posted previously.) Here's what we think is the truth about Marco Polo:
Ever since the earliest of childhood days, people have heard of Marco Polo. Usually, introduction to the explorer involves an aquatic game played at parties, but what did Marco Polo really do? During his lifetime, Marco Polo is said to have traveled all over Asia and discovered the Asian culture. He then wrote of his travels to tell all of Europe, but how much of this is really true? The debate of whether Polo ever traveled to Asia still rages today. However, no matter whether or not Polo ever traveled to Asia, the major factor of his story rests in the impact of his novel.
According to the novel about his travels, Marco Polo is said to have traveled across the Middle East and into East Asia. In his novel Le Devisement du Monde , he recounts events all across the continent of Asia that indicate where his journey guided him. However, through these descriptions, doubt arises as to whether or not Polo ever reached some of the localities. First, most of the stories of the East Asian culture appear grossly exaggerated. Until Polo reaches East Asia, the stories are plausible, but upon reaching East Asia, the stories become fantastic. His description of the palaces in East Asia border mythology when he indicates that they stretch for miles and miles. Also, a lack of evidence in the records of the East Asian societies derogates the truth of Polo's travels; if he had actually served the Great Khan, the culture would have created some record of his presence, but the record of his travels simply does not exist. Finally, the fact that no two translations of the original work read the same brings doubt because the translations greaten exaggeration. There is no way to tell where Polo actually went and where he exaggerated facts to create the appearance of his actual travel due to this added exaggeration. However, the absolute truth of Polo's journeys matter not. Whether or not the novel was fabricated, the impact on Europe is the only truth considered essential when considering Polo.
(Continued) When Polo wrote of his travels, the impact on Europe shook the culture at its very base. Before reading the accounts, the sedentary people of Europe never understood Asian cultures; they possessed mythological views that stretched far enough to even consider the existence of giants. When Polo's travels finally reached print, these views quickly changed. Though the truth of the stories is doubted to this day, they opened the eyes to the humanity of the Asian cultures. The East lost its barbaric image and became an assembly of exalted cultures; the Europeans changed from a state of fear over the barbarity of Asia to a state of interest in the seemingly mythological cultures. The other became more relatable than the initial views perceived. Polo's writings lifted the Asiatic cultures in the eyes of Europeans with his stories and created a sense of humanity within the cultures that decimated any views of inferiority that Europeans possessed toward Asian cultures.
Along with the great impact on the perspective of Europe, Polo also helped to inspire much of the exploration that occurred after his journey. After his novel reached Europeans, the idea of exploration in Asia amplified. The general interest in Asia encouraged people to further study its farthest reaches and its incredible diversity. Even when leaving on his journey, Columbus carried a copy of Polo's novel with him. For a book of questionable truth, Polo's narrative of his travels affected the age of exploration greatly in Europe. People sought to learn more about the continent and its new image of mythological humanity that Polo perpetuated. Polo's work inspired Europeans to seek out more knowledge of the Asian cultures and helped to spark interest in learning of other cultures.
While the truth of Polo's journeys still remains a question that nobody can answer for sure, the real impact of Polo resonates in his effect on Europe. Because of Polo, the European perspective of Asian cultures drastically changed from fear or inferiority to interest and mythology. Today, this view of Asian cultures may appear silly, but Polo largely pushed forward understanding the other. Due to him, the exploration of the other exploded and began its ascent to its current point. That's not too bad for a person who most people know only because of a pool party game.
Despite the popular poolside game, “Marco Polo”, that has captured children’s attention for many years and the fame surrounding the explorer’s journeys, the esteem surrounding the traveler Marco Polo is quite unsupported. Based on the popular poolside game that children play, people seem to accept it as fact that Marco Polo actually traveled to China when in reality there is much evidence against it. Glamorized as the first European traveler to reach China, Marco Polo may have just been a traveler to the Far East, but never really traveled far enough to reach the Chinese borders and experience the Chinese cultures. While he deserves the label as a great early explorer, he doesn’t deserve the fame of being the first European man to reach China.
ReplyDeleteAlthough Marco Polo claims to have made his way from Italy to China, we believe that he never got that far. Our first justification of this is that he fails to mention significant aspects of Chinese culture and geography such as the great wall of china, women’s foot binding, calligraphy, and the prevalence of tea. If he had indeed lived in China for over a decade, it is reasonable to assume he would have experienced or at least heard of these entities, especially considering the detail with which he describes most other locations.
Secondly, it is rather strange that Polo never records direct human interaction but merely describes a multitude of scenes. It is known that Polo came into contact with Arabic traders who had certainly been to China. Therefore, Polo could have easily received information regarding Kublai Kahn and the Far East without actually traveling there. Another piece of evidence regarding the idea that Polo took his information from Arabic traders is the fact that he only describes Chinese concepts in Arabic terms. It seems very strange that someone who lived in China for ten years never learned the local language.
Whether or not Marco Polo traveled to China, it is insignificant. The more important matter is the cultural impact that Marco Polo had on the Western world, and how they viewed the east. Prior to Marco Polo’s account, Europeans had entirely false beliefs about China in the respect that they were physically deformed and mystical people. Although Polo’s account wasn’t a first-hand account, the message and description that he gave about China was a step in the right direction. The account didn’t need to be mostly true at all; it just needed to inspire fascination about the east and dispel popular misconceptions. Marco Polo’s account also inspired future explorers such as Christopher Columbus to travel the world and experience what Marco Polo referred to. Quite frankly, no one ever took the accounts of Marco Polo to be an encyclopedia of the East; they simply just used them as a springboard to explore the rest if the world. Ever since Marco Polo’s account was written, people have been suspect of whether the account is accurate at all. As long as the children have a game to play on the beach when Jimmy Clausen was working for two grueling weeks, then it doesn’t really matter whether Marco Polo traveled to China or not.
Mark, Andy, Nevin, & Kelly
Mike Marszowski, Chris Mork, Sarah Forde, Serena Mathews
ReplyDeleteDid Marco Polo go to China?
While Marco Polo’s accomplishments are definitely embellished in his narrative, he probably had to travel to China to learn the factual information he includes in his narrative. For example, his knowledge of a certain type of wild rhubarb and poisonous grass indigenous to Succuir could not have been fabricated, as it was confirmed by later travelers (Aurel Stein). His detailed knowledge of the history of the rise of the Mongol tribes to power in China likewise could not have been gained unless he traveled in the region. He also describes in detail the culture and customs of the native people such that it is likely that he lived among them for some time, as opposed to reading about it in a book.
Chinese records of the Ming dynasty do not have any indication that Marco Polo ever traveled to China and presented himself before the court of Kublai Khan. However, there are records in India of not only the fact that Marco Polo landed there, but also where he landed. Therefore, we theorize that because we know Marco Polo travelled to the East, and because he has such detailed knowledge of China, it can be safely assumed that Marco Polo did travel through China, although he did not present himself in the court of Kublai Khan. Judging by the original name of his narrative and his reputation as “Il Milione,” Marco Polo likely embellished his narrative to emphasize his own importance and make for a better story, but it was likely that his contemporaries knew to read it with a degree of skepticism.
Mike Marzowski, Chris Mork, Sarah Forde, Serena Mathews
ReplyDeleteDoes it Matter?
The embellishments by Marco Polo and his myriad editors do not necessarily undermine the factual credibility of his work. Although many grand details describing the court of Kublai Khan and the Great Khan’s favoritism of Marco Polo were likely added either by Polo himself or by subsequent authors, he still conveyed a great deal of factual information about China and the East as a whole. Although it is possible that Polo gained some of his information from other sources, he is still the primary force behind disseminating that knowledge throughout Europe. Regardless of whether or not he travelled to China, Polo is still responsible for reshaping the East in the collective European consciousness from a mythical, almost superhuman entity, to a concrete image with a real culture and real people.
Katie, Joe, Zach and Adam
ReplyDeleteThe most important question is not whether Marco Polo made it to China, but if it even matters. Because the historical Western mindset on China is largely based on the writings of Marco Polo, it is important to know whether the mindset is based on an accurate account or not. If Marco Polo’s account is false, thousands of misconceptions about the East can then be attributed to his false account. Frances Wood, in her 1995 book Did Marco Polo Go To China?, notes while arguing that Marco Polo did not go to China that “these images [of the East] also distorted the reality of the Far East and has left behind a legacy of fictions and stereotypes instead.” Now that it is understood why it is important whether or not Marco Polo actually went to China, we can now evaluate if he did or not.
We firmly believe Marco Polo did not in fact go to China for many reasons. First he did not mention many important aspects of the Chinese culture. Included in these aspects are the tradition of foot-binding, the Great Wall, tea drinking practices, and the Chinese writing system. Some historians, such as John Larner, attempt to downplay the significances of these omissions. For example, Larner notes that foot-binding was limited only to the upper-class. However, Marco Polo seemed to spend quite a large amount of time interacting with the Great Kahn and holding high positions, he must have spent a bit of time with the upper-class or at least seen evidence of this ritual. Next, Larner defends the omission of the Great Wall by noting that the Wall would have been in much greater ruins than it is now (due to the repair in the 16th century) and it would not have been a major fixation for Marco Polo to focus on. Again, even if the Great Wall was a fraction of the size it is today, it would still be quite noticeable, or at least the story of its greatness would have been mentionable. Larner’s defense of Polo’s ignorance of the tea-drinking practices is that these practices were popular in Southern China, and Polo stayed mostly in the Northern region. While this is a very solid point, it is very possible that news of the practice would have reached him in Northern China, especially if he was as focused on documenting the culture as he appears. Lastly, Larner’s defense for the writing system is that Polo did mention paper money. Truly, this one of the weakest rebuttals we’ve ever seen. Failure to mention the Chinese calligraphy is failing to mention a very important part of why the Culture was so advanced, and certainly aided misconceptions of the East.
Other evidence comes in the stereotypes that Polo enforces with his description of the Chinese people. Similarly to how the author of the Bali article catered his commentary to the Western ideas of what was expected of the Balinese culture, Polo’s writing style makes it appear that he did the same thing. His choppy, impersonal accounts of each city appear very tailored to what the Europeans expect. For example, Polo’s account of page 76 (Chapter 51) of the customary practice of burying the Prince in which anyone who the Prince’s escorts found on the road on the way to the burial site would be sacrificed in order to be servants in the afterlife, is a small account similar to the Balinese story that would instantly ignite curiosity in the Western readers. Polo notes that upwards of 20,000 people would be slain on the journey to the burial spot. This exemplifies the efforts of Polo to dramatize the people of the East and their practices and spurs on the current stereotypes. In other instances, such as in Chapter 39, Polo mentions a route across the desert that describes other people’s account rather than his own. His account is so impersonal that it is not unreasonable to doubt his crossing of the desert at all.
On a final note, no major Chinese documents have mentioned Polo’s existence or encounter with the Great Kahn or even the region. The Mongol culture at the time documented practically every interaction with the Great Kahn, so it is odd that, as close as Polo seems to say he was to the Kahn, there is no mention of Polo.
ReplyDeleteIn the end, it is quite evident that Marco Polo did not actually reach China. His account is too impersonal, choppy, and romanticized to seem believable. If he did not in fact reach China, centuries of beliefs of the “other” culture are based on a false or copied account. If his account was copied from another source, he still added his own flair to spice up the culture and make the book more entertaining for its Western readers.
Sources:
Dr. Lionel Jenson
Rspas.anu.edu/au/eah/Marcopolo.html
Farish A Noor in Impact International Vol.27 No.2 February 1997,
Ramadan/Shaw’wal 1417.
Article based on "Did Marco Polo Go To China?" by Frances Wood, Secker
and Warburg, London 1995
From the 7/24/00 issue of USN&WR
The fabulous fabulist
Did Marco Polo really make it to China?
Michael Collins, Ryan Lynch, Caroline McIlroy, Andrew Ritter, and Shannon Warchol
ReplyDeleteOur post was orignally posted under the previous topic in order to meet the deadline of October 4, but here it is again (the exact same as posted previously.)
Here's what we think is the truth about Marco Polo:
Ever since the earliest of childhood days, people have heard of Marco Polo. Usually, introduction to the explorer involves an aquatic game played at parties, but what did Marco Polo really do? During his lifetime, Marco Polo is said to have traveled all over Asia and discovered the Asian culture. He then wrote of his travels to tell all of Europe, but how much of this is really true? The debate of whether Polo ever traveled to Asia still rages today. However, no matter whether or not Polo ever traveled to Asia, the major factor of his story rests in the impact of his novel.
According to the novel about his travels, Marco Polo is said to have traveled across the Middle East and into East Asia. In his novel Le Devisement du Monde , he recounts events all across the continent of Asia that indicate where his journey guided him. However, through these descriptions, doubt arises as to whether or not Polo ever reached some of the localities. First, most of the stories of the East Asian culture appear grossly exaggerated. Until Polo reaches East Asia, the stories are plausible, but upon reaching East Asia, the stories become fantastic. His description of the palaces in East Asia border mythology when he indicates that they stretch for miles and miles. Also, a lack of evidence in the records of the East Asian societies derogates the truth of Polo's travels; if he had actually served the Great Khan, the culture would have created some record of his presence, but the record of his travels simply does not exist. Finally, the fact that no two translations of the original work read the same brings doubt because the translations greaten exaggeration. There is no way to tell where Polo actually went and where he exaggerated facts to create the appearance of his actual travel due to this added exaggeration. However, the absolute truth of Polo's journeys matter not. Whether or not the novel was fabricated, the impact on Europe is the only truth considered essential when considering Polo.
(Continued)
ReplyDeleteWhen Polo wrote of his travels, the impact on Europe shook the culture at its very base. Before reading the accounts, the sedentary people of Europe never understood Asian cultures; they possessed mythological views that stretched far enough to even consider the existence of giants. When Polo's travels finally reached print, these views quickly changed. Though the truth of the stories is doubted to this day, they opened the eyes to the humanity of the Asian cultures. The East lost its barbaric image and became an assembly of exalted cultures; the Europeans changed from a state of fear over the barbarity of Asia to a state of interest in the seemingly mythological cultures. The other became more relatable than the initial views perceived. Polo's writings lifted the Asiatic cultures in the eyes of Europeans with his stories and created a sense of humanity within the cultures that decimated any views of inferiority that Europeans possessed toward Asian cultures.
Along with the great impact on the perspective of Europe, Polo also helped to inspire much of the exploration that occurred after his journey. After his novel reached Europeans, the idea of exploration in Asia amplified. The general interest in Asia encouraged people to further study its farthest reaches and its incredible diversity. Even when leaving on his journey, Columbus carried a copy of Polo's novel with him. For a book of questionable truth, Polo's narrative of his travels affected the age of exploration greatly in Europe. People sought to learn more about the continent and its new image of mythological humanity that Polo perpetuated. Polo's work inspired Europeans to seek out more knowledge of the Asian cultures and helped to spark interest in learning of other cultures.
While the truth of Polo's journeys still remains a question that nobody can answer for sure, the real impact of Polo resonates in his effect on Europe. Because of Polo, the European perspective of Asian cultures drastically changed from fear or inferiority to interest and mythology. Today, this view of Asian cultures may appear silly, but Polo largely pushed forward understanding the other. Due to him, the exploration of the other exploded and began its ascent to its current point. That's not too bad for a person who most people know only because of a pool party game.